04.12 Race 2

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04.12 Race 2

Postby euphoria » 05 Dec 2020 02:50

The 2nd race is ticked off with a protest flag, but I'm not sure what Red is protesting as I can't remember any hails for protest from them.
At least many situations in this race... The following are my analysis of the situations, but we're only protesting situation 3:

Situation 1
1:50-2:00 euphoria to windward of Jiel

I luffed when overlapped was established, and I was on a higher course outside immediate contact zone. Jiel luffed to parallell course and I luffed slowly in order to not hit him. I think it's borderline, but no hail for protest so no valid protest.

Situation 2
2:00-2:04 jiel above proper course

I wrote "P jiel" and jiel took a pen turn.

Situation 3
4:38 Galaxy to windward of euphoria

Leeward boat (euphoria) shall give windward boat (galaxy) room to pass and round the mark. Windward boat shall keep clear, unless sailing within mark-room. I gave Galaxy room to round the mark, but he sailed past the mark, then luffed and tacked, and did not sail within mark room, so no exoneration for breaking rule 11.
Both boats hailed protest. Only euphoria took a pen turn. I'm protesting this situation if necessary.

Situation 4
7:52 Johnpap inside Balder

Johnpap shall have room to sail to the mark. Balder sail directly towards the mark. Johnpap bear away far away from the mark. Maybe Balder could have given mark-room, maybe not, but since Johnpap did not try to sail within his mark-room, then benefit of the doubt goes with Balder. No cancellation and no protest. If it really was a pen, then the pen was clearly not taken as soon as possible and Balder would have got +6 points. He could have easily sailed straight past the mark instead of luffing towards (and past) the next mark. I intended to protest, but I am withdrawing the protest because of no rules violation.

Situation 5
11:39 Galaxy tacking on the bow of euphoria

Galaxy past head to wind a few meters from the finish line and euphoria hit him on port side while Galaxy was tacking. Galaxy broke rule 13 and 18.2a. He got a pen from VSK which he did not cancel and took a turn. No protests.

Score on finish: Red 11 vs Blue 10

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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 05 Dec 2020 14:23

Hi Harald and all,
Because the Harald post is well strucured, I use it to answer (situation 3) and to post my own protest (situation 1) in it.

Situation 1
1:50-2:00 euphoria to windward of Jiel
I luffed when overlapped was established, and I was on a higher course outside immediate contact zone. Jiel luffed to parallell course and I luffed slowly in order to not hit him. I think it's borderline, but no hail for protest so no valid protest.

t=1:51, Jiel overlapped with Eupho under 11 (to consider the angles, note Balder is almost HTW).
t=1:56, Jiel was luffing, Eupho responded not enough when he had room to tack for instance or at least to sail HTW.
t=1:58, Now the distance is so small that Jiel cannot luff more without making immediat contact. Eupho clearly broke rule 11. Eupho almost admitted that fact when writing "it's borderline".
At about 50% of the race duration, Jiel chatted he protested Eupho but with no answer from Eupho.
At about 90% of the race, Jiel re-chatted he protested Eupho about this incident but Eupho argued that the protest was hailed too late when he easily could repare the penalty in doing a 360 spin.
If there is an instruction saying the protest must be hailed in the minute, I will withdraw my protest which would be not valid but protest Eupho for rule 2 violation. Eupho knowing he broke rule 11 would have do a spin by himself.

Situation 3
4:38 Galaxy to windward of euphoria
Leeward boat (euphoria) shall give windward boat (galaxy) room to pass and round the mark. Windward boat shall keep clear, unless sailing within mark-room. I gave Galaxy room to round the mark, but he sailed past the mark, then luffed and tacked, and did not sail within mark room, so no exoneration for breaking rule 11.
Both boats hailed protest. Only euphoria took a pen turn. I'm protesting this situation if necessary.

Watching the replay, I dont see how Galaxy could round more shortly, could take less room. Being very close to the mark, Galaxy sailed safely and was needing the room he took. On the other side, Eupho changed course at t=4:35 and went to contact when Galaxy was rounding and keeping clear. Pen 18 and 16.1 for Eupho.

Good Day anybody,
Jean-Luc
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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby euphoria » 06 Dec 2020 01:12

Jean-Luc Dellis wrote:At about 50% of the race duration, Jiel chatted he protested Eupho but with no answer from Eupho.

Hmm, this is simply not a fact. I was the one who started talking about our situation half way up the first beat. I said it was not fair of you to break rule 17, because your team gained an advantage from it (didn't bear away from your luff until after I wrote "p jiel" 3 seconds after the starting signal). After I wrote this then you said "then I protest you for 11 before". I said it's too late to protest now.

At about 90% of the race, Jiel re-chatted he protested Eupho about this incident but Eupho argued that the protest was hailed too late when he easily could repare the penalty in doing a 360 spin.

It's not possible to take a penalty turn at a later stage in the race. Like you asked Galaxy in the downwind to spin for the incident at the first mark - this is not possible. Penalty turns has to be taken asap.

If there is an instruction saying the protest must be hailed in the minute, I will withdraw my protest which would be not valid

This is not a special instruction, it's the ordinary rules. See rule 61.1. Same as our VSK TR appendix D2.1(b), just modified for hailing procedure.

but protest Eupho for rule 2 violation. Eupho knowing he broke rule 11 would have do a spin by himself.

This is a very strange suggestion. Most of all because it's definitively not a deliberate violation. Not even close! Why would I deliberately get a pen for 11??? I honestly thought I was keeping clear while racing!!! You suggest that I knew I was breaking rule 11, while you didn't even protest on the water under 11??? Obviously you didn't know for sure I broke rule 11 since you didn't protest. Or you were happy that I luffedto a higher course than you, over close hauled and lost speed, knowing a few degrees more would not have made a difference.

It would only make sense to protest under rule 2 if a boat would have an advantage from the violation and from an ordinary protest. If I break rule 11 here, then I get a penalty turn to make, which is no advantage compared to keeping clear. If I gain an advantage from breaking a rule, after taking a penalty, then you write PX, and I can take another penalty turn, but that would not be the case here. Me luffing a few degrees more would not have made a difference. Me getting a pen would have made a difference, in negative way for my team.

If someone is deliberately breaking a rule, then it's you who don't automatically bear away at the starting signal, which I was complaining about upwind, but not protesting for. Everybody knows they have to bear away immediately after the gun in a situation like this.

Or Galaxy in race 1, who didn't take a good penalty turn after start, which is a deliberate action, just manipulating the VSK pen to go off by turning at the smallest possible grade.

By the way, in order to protest under rule 2 you would of course also need to hail P on the water in accordance with rule 61.1... But it would only make sense to protest if giving the boat enough turns on the water to make it finish 6th, would not make up for the advantage the boats team got from the rules violation.

Watching the replay, I dont see how Galaxy could round more shortly, could take less room. Being very close to the mark, Galaxy sailed safely and was needing the room he took.

This is just for the rules discussion, as we don't need this protest. When Galaxy has the mark just to starboard of his mast, he can make full rudder and tack to starboard and he would be far from the mark. This is a fact, just try yourself on the water. This happened at replay time 4:35, and is the latest point he can tack and be exonerated under 18.

2020-12-05 23_31_57-VskAC32.png
2020-12-05 23_31_57-VskAC32.png (195.6 KiB) Viewed 885 times

By initially turning very slow, Galaxy use more room than mark-room. He has almost left the mark clear astern when he starts luffing at a normal tacking speed. This is where he started to round the mark normally, at least 1.5 boats widths too late:

2020-12-05 23_56_39-VskAC32.png
2020-12-05 23_56_39-VskAC32.png (107.45 KiB) Viewed 885 times

Probably he wanted to stop John from passing on port, but he can't have both. He has to choose between protection to tack under rule 18 or trying the other boat...

On the other side, Eupho changed course at t=4:35 and went to contact when Galaxy was rounding and keeping clear.

I changed course, but that is a normal luff under 11/16.1. I did not go to contact, I did bear away to make sure he had enough room to keep clear. But he just continued swinging at level 20 on the rudder, which is an over rotation, much quicker turn than my luff, so he went to contact. And for the record, we were already on a collision course before I luffed. He had a safe way out which he did not choose to take. He can't later tack out like that. He can luff to a course above parallell, then he needs to slow down his turn.

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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 06 Dec 2020 14:33

I did a detailled response but got disconnected from the forum and all the draft was lost grrrr

In (very) short :

*/ My late protest complies with rule 61 because I intended to protest lately.
*/ I set off the sound in vsk and know the start gun only by reading the clock.
*/ Not sure there was a collision course before Eupho changed course to Gala
*/ Penalty turn must be taken asap if decided by the umpire. Under a competitor protest, I think the hailed skipper has time to decide to do a 360 spin or not.

If no other skippers come to say their opinion, I will set off the P flag. Is it ok ?

Cheers,
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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby euphoria » 06 Dec 2020 16:02

Jean-Luc Dellis wrote:My late protest complies with rule 61 because I intended to protest lately.

Rule 61.1
A boat shall hail 'Protest' at the first reasonable opportunity.

First reasonable opportunity means no later than right after a boat is done with a maneuver, like for example a mark rounding.

Penalty turn must be taken asap if decided by the umpire. Under a competitor protest, I think the hailed skipper has time to decide to do a 360 spin or not.

There is no difference on how a pen turn shall be performed, either if its given by VSK or if it's protested by a boat. Btw, in this situation, VSK gave a pen to Galaxy, which he decided to cancel...

Rule 44.2
After getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a One-Turn or Two-Turns Penalty by promptly making the required number of turns in the same direction, each turn including one tack and one gybe.

As soon as possible after the incident is not 2 legs later. The race has changed and may be settled, and the boat realizes she can take a turn without losing much... More than 20 seconds to think about a situation in TR never happens.

Both of these are procedures, and are clearly described in world sailing cases and appeal decisions.

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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 07 Dec 2020 01:50

1/About time requested to protest when racing
First reasonable opportunity means no later than right after a boat is done with a maneuver, like for example a mark rounding.

I dont know from where comes this definition of "what is a reasonnable opportunity" but I can easily agree with it. What I said in the preceeding post is about the rule 61 opening : "(a) A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity.". As explained before, Jiel inatially did not intend to protest Eupho because he had doubt about what had happened. After a while, Jiel understood he can fairly protest Eupho. As soon as Jiel thought rule 11 was violated, he hailed the protest. I sincerly think it is complying with the rule 61. IMO it is complying also with the rule 60 :
60.1 A boat may
(a) protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident;

IMO it is useless to lose time in administrative rules details examination unless keeping in mind the basic idea : a rule was violated or not ?

2a/
There is no difference on how a pen turn shall be performed, either if its given by VSK or if it's protested by a boat. Btw, in this situation, VSK gave a pen to Galaxy, which he decided to cancel...

So there is no difference on how a pen shall be performed if VSK puts a pen 10 and when a 2 miles distance boat hails "P 10" ? Sorry I cant agree with that.
VSK umpire is a like an real umpire and we might follow his requests except we know that VSK does errors and we agreed to let the skippers to finally set the decision : accept or refuse cancellation requirements.
VSK gave a pen to Galaxy, which he decided to cancel...
and you decided to cancel.
2b/ After that above, you point to the rule 44 but rule 44 applies for recognized penalty which is not the case here because Gala didnt respond to the P hail and we state there is at least, a doubt about rule violation from him.

3/ Can you give links to the
world sailing cases and appeal decisions
you cited at your post end ?

respectfully,
Jean-Luc
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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby euphoria » 07 Dec 2020 18:13

Jean-Luc Dellis wrote:What I said in the preceeding post is about the rule 61 opening : "(a) A boat intending to protest shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity.". As explained before, Jiel inatially did not intend to protest Eupho because he had doubt about what had happened. After a while, Jiel understood he can fairly protest Eupho. As soon as Jiel thought rule 11 was violated, he hailed the protest. I sincerly think it is complying with the rule 61.

The opening text of rule 61.1(a) is the general requirement for all protests. Then you have additional requirements for protests in the racing area that a boat was a part of. You did not hail protest at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident, which means the requirements for a valid protest is not met.

There is no difference on how a pen turn shall be performed, either if its given by VSK or if it's protested by a boat. Btw, in this situation, VSK gave a pen to Galaxy, which he decided to cancel...

So there is no difference on how a pen shall be performed if VSK puts a pen 10 and when a 2 miles distance boat hails "P 10" ? Sorry I cant agree with that.
VSK umpire is a like an real umpire and we might follow his requests except we know that VSK does errors and we agreed to let the skippers to finally set the decision : accept or refuse cancellation requirements.

There is imo no logical difference:
- A penalty a boat get from VSK is something the boat has to evaluate if she accepts or not.
- A protest from another boat is something the boat has to evaluate if she agrees with or not.
The time needed to evaluate the situation is exactly the same time for both. It's the situation we have to consider, not the form of protesting.

Why would it matter to me if you wrote "P euphoria" right after an incident from 100 meter distance or from 5 meter distance?
It's the preceding situation you are protesting, ref the first discussion...

VSK gave a pen to Galaxy, which he decided to cancel...
and you decided to cancel.
After that above, you point to the rule 44 but rule 44 applies for recognized penalty which is not the case here because Gala didnt respond to the P hail and we state there is at least, a doubt about rule violation from him.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here.

When a boat is protested, he has basically two options:
1. Take a penalty turn in accordance with rule 44.
2. Take no penalty turn.

Taking a penalty turn NOT in accordance with rule 44 gives the same consequence as option 2 (taking no penalty turn).
If he was in doubt of having broken a rule or not, he has to manage that risk himself.
I was in doubt if I had broken a rule, but I did not want to risk +6 penalty points after the race, so I immediately took a penalty turn, complying with rule 44.2.

Can you give links to the world sailing cases and appeal decisions

Here is one example of flag at first reasonable opportunity (obviously the hail is required long before the flag):
RYA 1999/1
A protest flag must be kept close at hand. A boat that waits to see whether another boat will take a penalty before displaying a protest flag has not acted at the first reasonable opportunity.

Here is another that highlights at that the hail has to be made at the time of the incident:
RYA 1990/7
Carina should have hailed and displayed a protest flag at the time of the incident in accordance with rule 61.1(a)

International judges manual:
K.8.6 The Hail
There is currently no World Sailing Case to interpret the word ‘reasonable’ in rule 61.1(a), ‘… she shall hail “Protest” and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each.’ Judges must use their own common sense to interpret the requirement, but it does not take long to make a hail.

International umpires TR manual:
6.3 Protest Validity
A protest is not valid if the hail is delayed

International umpires MR manual (this is TR, but the concept is the same - the protests has to be right after the incident):
E.27 Y-Flag Displays
A Y-flag should be displayed immediately after an incident. It is reasonable that a flag shown later than 10 seconds after an incident should be green-and-white-flagged.

With regards to complying with 44.2, the wording of the rule does not open for wide interpretations, as it says "as soon after the incident as possible" (asap is asap) and "promptly making the required number of turns" (promptly is promptly).

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Re: 04.12 Race 2

Postby Shura » 14 Dec 2020 12:54

Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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