Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

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Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby sailgood » 30 Mar 2020 18:11

Blu protest 2 situation:

1: SGD Protest Euphoria min. of replay 4.21 for broke rule 12 on Zhik.
2: SGD Protest Jimi min. of replay 5.45 for broke rule 11.

Score: Red 9 vs BLU 12
RED: Euphoria
RED: Jimi
BLU: Sailgood
BLU: Geronimo
BLU: Zhik
RED: Jiel
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby euphoria » 30 Mar 2020 20:05

1. I protested Zhik at top mark (same as SGD protest 1).
Zhik tacks in the zone.
When Zhik and I bear away to round the mark, I become inside overlapped, and he shall give mark room.
I can't continue to round mark without crashing, I try to avoid, but still there is a collision.
Zhik broke rule 11 and 18.3. No 15 and 16 on me, as I sail within the mark-room I'm entitled too.
PS! Boats are overlapped for longer than VSK is telling, that is a known bug.
See my replay for more smooth details, but overlap also in SGD replay.

2. I agree Jimi broke rule 11.

3. I protested 2 times for 17 on Zhik downwind. He only took a pen for my 2nd protest.

Case 1 and 2 are very clear, so I don't think it's necessary to proceed to protest 3.

Harald
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby Shura » 31 Mar 2020 08:08

TRC 2020 03 30 race 01 top mark


TRC 2020 03 30 race 01 Blu protest 2 situation
Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby euphoria » 01 Apr 2020 08:56

No reply on case 1?

H
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby sailgood » 01 Apr 2020 13:08

euphoria wrote:1. I protested Zhik at top mark (same as SGD protest 1).
Zhik tacks in the zone.
When Zhik and I bear away to round the mark, I become inside overlapped, and he shall give mark room.
I can't continue to round mark without crashing, I try to avoid, but still there is a collision.


you are not inside between mark and zhik hence 18.3 not apply.

euphoria wrote:Zhik broke rule 11


Rule 11 can't apply because the contact is on the stern of boat and

euphoria wrote: 18.3. No 15 and 16 on me, as I sail within the mark-room I'm entitled too.


"18.3 said Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone of a mark to be left to port passes head to wind
from port to starboard tack and is then fetching the mark, she shall
not cause a boat that has been on starboard tack since entering the
zone to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact and she shall give
mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her. When this
rule applies between boats, rule 18.2 does not apply between them."

he never forced you to sail above close-hauled to avoid contact, and the contact is on ster of the boat, hence you are not inside between him and boat. (see screen)

IMO rule 12 for euphoria.
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby euphoria » 01 Apr 2020 14:19

I was leeward boat when we hit, hence rule 11 applies, not rule 12.
Overlap is not measured from the bow, but from any part of the boat, however here the boat is limited to hull and mast.

Inside boat means the boat on the port side of the other for a mark to be rounded to port.
Where you are relative to the mark has nothing to do with "inside boat".

In this case:
Overlapped = Leeward = Inside boat
Contact means no mark-room given.
No contact also means no mark-room is given, if the boats would have hit if the inside boat sailed within the mark-room she was entitled.

I will add a few screens from Zhik's stern to point out start and end of overlap.
Click on image to see full height, to include time stamp

4:17.50 Overlap begins (mast)

4:19.80 Overlap also with hull
2020-04-01 15_05_03-VskAC32.png
2020-04-01 15_05_03-VskAC32.png (244.97 KiB) Viewed 383 times

4:21.00 I stop rotation (even bow is overlapped)
2020-04-01 15_06_22-VskAC32.png
2020-04-01 15_06_22-VskAC32.png (199.59 KiB) Viewed 383 times

4:21.31 Overlap hull ends (but continues with mast)
2020-04-01 15_07_03-VskAC32.png
2020-04-01 15_07_03-VskAC32.png (236.13 KiB) Viewed 383 times

I hope this helps.
For the record, "contact" in vsk happened even when overlapped with hull.

Harald
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby jiel » 01 Apr 2020 16:34

Being involved in the race, its just my opinion.
First time I saw the replay, I thought "Harald is wrong".
But 18.3 says " ... and she shall give mark-room if that boat becomes overlapped inside her". Second point, the definition of when overlaped is the opposite of clear astern : "One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position". So watching carefully the video, one can check that Harald is overlapped (because Zhik raotated much and created the overlap) and the overlap is on the Zhik side to the mark, so inside.
Third and last point. Everybody watching the video could think it is not fair because Zhik could not escape, but actually Zhik could escape if not rotated so much, in order Harald stayed behind or took the inside but with no contact. All come from 18.3 if Zhik didnt tack in the zone, it would be another affair.
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Re: Race 1 - Special Monday Freedom

Postby euphoria » 02 Apr 2020 11:15

Thanks Jean-Luc! Yep, this case is not about judgement, it's only about geometry. This makes the case clear when you look at the overlap moments, even though it appears complex.

jiel wrote:Everybody watching the video could think it is not fair because Zhik could not escape, but actually Zhik could escape if not rotated so much, in order Harald stayed behind or took the inside but with no contact. All come from 18.3 if Zhik didnt tack in the zone, it would be another affair.

I think it in any case is fair, as Zhik volunteered to tack there. If he didn't, but continued further before tacking, he would be fine.
But yes, he could have escaped by sailing further from the mark before bearing away.

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