FreeDom #2 race 7

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FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby samuel » 09 Apr 2020 13:08

SAM(thinkinghard) x PARUS - race 7 (replay time 8:48)


The situation:

Both boats on downwind startboars arriving to mark -
sam is windward
parus leeward
sam gets overllap 08:41:40
parus luff more breaking 17.1 at 08:46:00


sam
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Tropical Straight Port 0°(01'01''68)r6 dia 8 sam x pavel.Replay.Gbx
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby Shura » 09 Apr 2020 14:21

TRC 2020 04 08 SAMthinkinghard x PARUS race 7

privet Samuel.
In this case, an error has occurred. Nadeo determines the overlap of the boat, fixing the front step of the staysail, and shows rule 12 on the panel, but visually the hull remains on the hull.

p.s.
in this race there was another incident in the start between JieL and Parus.
what are the opinions ?
TRC 2020 04 08 race 07 prestart Jiel vs Parus
Last edited by Shura on 09 Apr 2020 19:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby jiel » 09 Apr 2020 18:20

Shura, it is not the right video for SAM/PARUS.

Concerning JIEL/PARUS my protest and opinion is that Parus luffed hard to keep clear of Jiel but failed. Jiel had to keep clear from Masino and gave room to Parus who had to luff softly to keep clear. Parus penalyzed 11.
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby Shura » 09 Apr 2020 19:56

jiel wrote:Shura, it is not the right video for SAM/PARUS.

Concerning JIEL/PARUS my protest and opinion is that Parus luffed hard to keep clear of Jiel but failed. Jiel had to keep clear from Masino and gave room to Parus who had to luff softly to keep clear. Parus penalyzed 11.

sorry . fixed.
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby jiel » 09 Apr 2020 20:10

About the Parus/Sam incident, I watched carrefully the replay from different points of view. It could be that the overlap was broken around 8min41 and a new overlap created quickly after. It is hard to show up definitly. I attach a picture here and let the other skippers to decide.
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby euphoria » 09 Apr 2020 23:02

samuel wrote:sam gets overllap 08:41:40

I think it's more important to hear when you think overlap was broken.
I assume VSK called him overlapped when you entered zone, otherwise you would have trapped him.
Looks like a weak case if you claim overlap was broken inside the zone with only a few centimeters only for fractions of a second.
As far as I remember, VSK wont visualize 17 when inside the zone, but have to check again...

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby samuel » 09 Apr 2020 23:20

RRS 17 does not let us margin to hesitation, if we have the wapon "camera overview" then we assume that will be used to photo chart judgement....

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby euphoria » 10 Apr 2020 00:04

It is not possible to see a 5 cm overlap broken while racing.
We are not umpiring with a microscope, I think I have said that a dozen times the last weeks.

If overlap was broken by 5cm (or maybe not broken at all) and the ISAF panel says 17.1 is on, then this is definite, no question!

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby LG07 » 10 Apr 2020 00:22

1st case : I would say green, because even if overlap was broken IMO Parus is in the limits of "proper course" to have a good rounding with optimal exit to upwind.

2nd case : As i said in chat, I think it is pen 15 for Jiel who does not leave enough space to Parus to keep clear (Parus luff does not seems too exaggerate).

If Umpire followed my opinion on this two cases, it will make my team win, but I am totally unbiased :-)

Cheers

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby samuel » 10 Apr 2020 01:13

LG07 wrote: I would say green, because even if overlap was broken IMO Parus is in the limits of "proper course" to have a good rounding with optimal exit to upwind.

Normal for a Comanche, not for a acc =]. (joking)

We cannot have two different yardsticks when it comes to applying RRS. in other hand I understand, thats could be centanly a hard case to umpire real and probably green, but we are on virtual sea with hightech in our favor. So to me is the best way to leave no doubt.

Anyway I say thanks.

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby jiel » 10 Apr 2020 09:18

case 1 : In an other recent case I suggested to use the "uncertainty principle" but a picture evidence was used to state an overlap which was little imo. I think there are situations that the skippers cannot appreciate exactly when sailing, these are the "microscopic" cases which would be judged according to the uncertainty principle. If we apply that, in this case there was no overlap broken and no 17. If we do that, please do also for all the microscopic (hardly appreciated from the boat sailing) cases.
case 2 : Charles, my turn to repeat : I had to keep clear from Masino, so any course change of any skipper must be undertaken smoothly. It is Parus who had the 15, not me. Now if you think, I could bear away to give room to Parus, ok its a 15 for me. I will however align up to the opinion of non involved skippers even if they say I am wrong aaaahhhhhhhhhh bouhououou :(
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby euphoria » 10 Apr 2020 10:45

samuel wrote:I understand, thats could be centanly a hard case to umpire real and probably green, but we are on virtual sea with hightech in our favor. So to me is the best way to leave no doubt.

Yes, and by applying last point of certainty, we leave no doubt.
You can add to the uncertainty that on our replay you can be 5cm clear while on Parus replay you can be 5cm overlapped.
We need to create a definite clear ahead situation that is visible while racing, when we don't have the help of the isaf panel.
If you can't see the broken overlap on a youtube video, then it's not good enough.

These discussions are not interesting and does not give our members a better understanding of the rules, it's just time wasting, and we have to avoid having the forum filled with these kind of cases (just like the greyzone 15/16 cases where the boat with ROW has control).

jiel wrote:case 1 : In an other recent case I suggested to use the "uncertainty principle" but a picture evidence was used to state an overlap which was little imo.

If you talk about the situation I think you do, then the overlap had existed for several seconds before impact. The other party claimed overlap was broken just before impact, so it's the other way around for that one.
In some cases we need to look in the replay, like the LG-Venhobel case from the last TRC event.
No collision, no avoiding action = no pen. Small luff, small collision = pen for 16.1.

case 2 : Charles, my turn to repeat : I had to keep clear from Masino, so any course change of any skipper must be undertaken smoothly. Now if you think, I could bear away to give room to Parus, ok its a 15 for me.

Jean-Luc, you created the situation, so you are not getting any slack for having to keep clear of Donmasino. If it was not possible for you to both keep clear of Donmasino and give room to Parus, then you should not have put your nose in there. You break rule 15. Rule 19 applies also, you are suddenly inside of Parus relative to Donmasino who is an obstruction to both of you. But rule 19.2(b) says that Parus doens't have to give you room if he is not able to give it from the time your overlap began. This was a nice situation!

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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby jiel » 10 Apr 2020 14:55

OK the both cases (race 7) are now over.
Just one last theorical question about similar Maso/Jiel/Parus situation. What about if Jiel lately (but not overlapped) decided to not go in the sandwitch, luffed to stay windward but Parus luffed at the same time and contact occured stern/bow ?
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Re: FreeDom #2 race 7

Postby euphoria » 10 Apr 2020 16:08

I don't think that would be a problem, as if parus luffs, his stern goes down, so it would be more room for you.
But if we think opposite, if parus bear away at the same time you luff, so that hi stern goes up at the same time as your bow goes up...
If he would not have changed course, and your boat ends up in the immediate contact zone, then you have broken rule 11.
The right of way boat shall have "wiggle room", but can't make hard rudder movements when you are close.

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