stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

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stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby jiel » 24 Apr 2020 20:18

Hi all,
IMO Parus broke rule 20.2(c), replay time t=4min. On the vidéo, lefter boat is Parus, then is Jiel, then comes Shura on starboard tack and being an obstruction to Jiel.
Jiel hailed well before immediat danger but Parus didnt respond in the chat and delayed his tack very late when the rule 20 says he must tack asap. Proofs :
a) Jiel had finished his tack when Parus was still on port tack
b) actually Parus was waiting Jiel tacked when the rule 20 says he must tack first, then Jiel tacks asap.
c) Shuraz had to change course to not hit Jiel, so Jiel was prevented to avoid Shura safely rule 20.1(a)
Jiel protested in the chat but Parus answered "no". Moreover, Parus got an important advantage to fetch the next mark which he would not have if he had tacked asap as required by rule 20.2(c).

Arrival : Blue 8, Red 11
Parus B
Think B
Jiel R
Shura R
Balder B
Masino R

vidéo : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eXpLPe8YHFOr_JPksTNrZIYb8eYpERE0/view?usp=sharing

What do you think ?
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Re: stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby PArus » 25 Apr 2020 04:57

jiel wrote:Hi all,
IMO Parus broke rule 20.2(c)

The rule says : " The hailed yacht TAKE ACTION , or make the overshoot so quickly….. "

After the hail RTT , PArus TAKE ACTION (replay time 4.06.00) , gave place to Keep Clear Jiel from the boat Shuraz.

The boat Shuraz could not change course , there was no contact between the participants of the incident
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Re: stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby jiel » 25 Apr 2020 08:38

You must tack first, then I must tack :
(c) A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
(d) When a hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon as possible.
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Re: stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby euphoria » 25 Apr 2020 10:07

See the APPENDIX D FOR VSK5.
D1.1(e): Rule 20.2(c) is changed to ‘A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible, or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ (‘YT’/‘T’) or if she is able to, wait until the hailing boat begins her tacking maneuver and then giving the hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.’

Parus chose the third option, and was able to give room this way, hence complied with 20.2(c).

This change was made 10 years ago or so for VSK, in order to reduce the time spent writing in the chat, which would delay the whole process of rule 20. This was considered acceptable, as rule 20 is not really a safety rule in VSK... The alternative is to delete the whole rule for VSK, when the obstruction is a boat racing.

Harald
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Re: stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby jiel » 25 Apr 2020 11:03

Hi Parus, hi Harald and all,

OK you are right indeed, I put down the protest flag and say sincerely wd to the winners.

That said, I think this D1.1(e) change is useless because rule 20 is sufficient and safe. If to hail "T" in the chat is a long process then the hailed boat tacks immediatly then the hailing boat tacks asap and all is ok. What is not safe here ? On the other side, to wait the hailing boat begins his tacking move increases the danger in my opinion. Anyway, maybe I am wrong and there are arguments for the change so I will follow the appendix in the future.

Thanks you Harald !

PS : think to update the appendix :)

Jean-Luc

Re-edit : One question. According to the change D1.1(e), once the hail "rtt" is chatted, the hailing boat may tack asap because the hailed boat does not need time to respond (in the chat box) ? If yes, then I understand the change.
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Re: stable #3 race #3 Jiel protests Parus

Postby euphoria » 25 Apr 2020 12:15

jiel wrote:PS : think to update the appendix :)

No problem to change the VSK appendix. We should always try to find the rules that suites our community and VSK sailing in the best possible way.
I think would seriously consider to only apply rule 20 at continuous obstructions (land), as it's probably the most abused rule of VSK, and not really necessary for safety.
In NC many years ago, we disallowed use of that rule on the layline...

One question. According to the change D1.1(e), once the hail "rtt" is chatted, the hailing boat may tack asap because the hailed boat does not need time to respond (in the chat box) ? If yes, then I understand the change.

Not necessarily.
- Because in some situations, the boats are positioned in a way that requires windward to tack first in order to be able to give room (if windward is slightly ahead of leeward).
- And in some situations, the windward boat needs time to hail RTT for another boat which is to windward of her.

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