FreeDom #4 Race 3

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FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby euphoria » 29 Apr 2020 19:29

I protest Jiel for hailing P when the other boat clearly didn't break a rule.
Replay time 8:29.
Jiel protested Shuraz for hitting him, as if he didn't get the room he was entitled to.
Shuraz replied in chat, "I gave you room".
Chat went on, and after 90 seconds, Shuraz took a penalty turn.
I don't know why, but probably because he was under pressure.

While chatting, Jiel complained that he could not cancel his penalty.
I told him it was because he hit his team mate LG, not Shuraz.
Jiel then realized he was wrong and withdrew his P.
But damage was done, and blue went from a solid 2 3 4 to a loss with 2 3 6 (10-11).

I think red should have handed the race to blue under the spirit of fair sailing.
If not, I think at least this classifies to 1 penalty point under rule D3.1(b):
"Any hail for protest at situations where the opponent clearly didn't break any rule: 1 penalty point"
I think the fact that Jiel withdrew the protest on the water when he realized that he hit the other boat, is enough evidence that P clearly should not have been hailed.
This is what that rule is for, to not put pressure on an opponent to make turns they should not make.

PS! With a tied score on points (11-11), race win goes to the team without first place (D3.1(d)).
https://vsk-team.com/appendix-d.php

Harald
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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby jiel » 29 Apr 2020 21:42

My defense :

1/ I thought wrongly it was a contact with Shura but why ? Because the room was given so late that the distance Shura-Jiel was very small and without the vsk chat box one may easily think the contact came from Shura.
2/ For the same reason, I saw Shura stb and in a reflex I did all my best to keep clear. In my opinion, Shura didnt give room as it would be done. Consequently I was forced to bear. If I didnt bear to avoid, surely the contact would be with Shura. Because Shura didnt give the room correctly, it results in a penalty for Shura (rule 15 or rule 16.1 has been broken). Consequently and after the replay analysis, I think my protest was fair.
3/ Jiel had to do a fair 360 because the pen with LG. Shura did also a fair 360 to repair. All is ok then.
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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby euphoria » 30 Apr 2020 09:23

jiel wrote:If I didnt bear to avoid, surely the contact would be with Shura

It is not necessarily going to be contact with Shura if you don't hit LG, because Shura who is pointing at you can any time bear away to give you the room you need. And he actually beared away to give you room. He could have beared away more if needed. This is the way we sail, to make sure you don't use more room than necessary. You just have to take the room you are entitled to.
1. if you take the room you are entitled to and shura hits you, then shura get a penalty under 18
2. if you clearly take more room, you will get a penalty under 10 or 11, even without contact
3. as the middle boat, you can't hit the inner boat and claim it on the outer boat when the outer boat is able to give you room

If we did the opposite with number 3, we would create alot of situations that would be impossible to prove.

Maybe Aleks can post and say why he did a turn after 90 seconds of chat?

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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby Shura » 30 Apr 2020 11:28

euphoria wrote:Maybe Aleks can post and say why he did a turn after 90 seconds of chat?

Harald

I felt tired in the evening.
and could not correctly assess the situation.
therefore, in all conflict situations, im decided to make himself wrong.
Sorry.

TRC 2020 04 29 race 03 leeward mark
Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby jiel » 30 Apr 2020 11:50

OK I admit I was wrong, sorry Shura, sorry all, my protest was not correct. I didnt do on purpose but only because I thought the contact was with Shura. I accept the 1 pt penalty. Sorry WM and LG.
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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby euphoria » 30 Apr 2020 12:33

Thanks Jean-Luc.

If my team mates agree, I think we can unscore the whole race, just for fairness.

There was another thin protest in this race by me, when LG luffed over proper course after the last mark. I think this was an attempt to tack behind me, which was unsuccessful. Technically it's a violation of rule 17.1, but as long as it's clearly an attempt to tack behind, I would be happy to have it as a policy to not penalize under 17 if the boat bear away again. I protested as a response to a similar insignificant rule 17 protest from LG on Donmasino in race 2. Shuraz did btw get a 17.1 penalty from VSK when he tried to tack behind Jiel on the first beat in race 3. He took this penalty, which a kind of makes up for the penalty LG took...

Speaking of fairness, in race 5 red had practically won the race, when wmr1 and me was 1 and 2 at the last top mark, and Mac was 3rd. I told Mac to luff the other boats, which would have sealed the deal. He started luffing, then LG starts talking to Mac and makes him gybe. This made LG able overtake me downwind. Red managed to win the race, due to a marginal penalty at the bottom mark... If blue had won the race, I really hope they would have given it to red. I understand LG thought Mac was on his team, so I have no problem with that - there were no unfair intentions. But the effect is the same on the race.

These are not very important championship regattas, or official races between fixed teams. We do the TRC events with mixed teams, where we have new team mates all the time. The participants have language barriers and have different knowledge of rules etc. I think it's very important that we keep having a fair attitude in these races, and not take advantage of the limits mentioned above.

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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby samuel » 30 Apr 2020 13:22

What a great learning to all, WELL DONE!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: FreeDom #4 Race 3

Postby euphoria » 04 May 2020 23:39

euphoria wrote:If my team mates agree, I think we can unscore the whole race, just for fairness.

There were no objections to this suggestion, so I have now unscored this race.

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