Race 2

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Race 2

Postby euphoria » 03 Jun 2020 20:33

https://vsk-team.com/trc_scoreboard.php?id=72

Protesting JohnPap at 20 sec for breaking rule 12 and/or 19.2c.
Not overlapped, sails into my stern. I'm changing course normally... So I think it's only 12, not 16.1.
If I had not luffed, he would have become overlapped inside, but not enough room to pass between me and land, so he would have broken 15 and 19.2c.

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Re: Race 2

Postby jiel » 03 Jun 2020 21:27

hi H. At what time please ?
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Re: Race 2

Postby euphoria » 03 Jun 2020 21:58

Sorry, forgot to say it was 20 sec into the replay.



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Re: Race 2

Postby jiel » 04 Jun 2020 08:50

Yep clear 12 imo.
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Re: Race 2

Postby gr71 » 04 Jun 2020 09:19

Euphoria and me, were sailing on a broad reach, both on starboard, alongside the coast. Euphoria was clear ahead and myself was clear astern by 1cm or more.
When Euphoria was very close to the land, he started luffing sharply and i slightly bore away to avoid contact. I almost scratched the land....
The boats were never overlapped and there was no contact.
Euphoria got a penalty 16.1 because as the Right of way boat changed course and Nadeo considered the he didn't give me room to keep clear. I think that at the limit room was given to me as required by rule 16.1.
Since Euphoria was changing course and I was sailing within the room I was entitled to rule 21 applies
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Re: Race 2

Postby jiel » 04 Jun 2020 09:37

I checked the incident in zooming and there is a contact bow-stern as showed up in the picture below. Still thinking its a clear rule 12 violation. I am however involved in the race as a Eupho mate ...
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Re: Race 2

Postby euphoria » 04 Jun 2020 09:49

I don't agree its a sharp luff. This is the luff I would have made if you became overlapped to leeward of me as if I had to luff to keep clear under rule 11, and I would have been entitled to room for this luff. A boat clear ahead with right of way can't be restricted to luff less than she would have if being 50 cm further back and having to keep clear... It's called "wiggle room". The boat clear ahead is only using the space in the immediate contact zone around her stern.

The risk is on the boat clear astern when the nose is put close to the stern of the boat clear ahead.
In this case, the clear astern boat with speed advantage could have beard away earlier/more or luffed.

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Re: Race 2

Postby gr71 » 04 Jun 2020 09:52

Sorry but if there is contact, then on my opinion 16.1 is good on my point of view
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Re: Race 2

Postby gr71 » 04 Jun 2020 10:05

oh you write to fast :) , just saw reply from Harald..
i was keeping clear all the time and it was your luff that created that contact...
Also you need to consider that you shall give me room to keep clear under 16.1 which you don't because room is space to comply with my rule 12 obbligations which I don't if there is contact

The real thing is that we are having fun in this game, so i dont care for the result of the protest but mainly for the incident as it is a very interesting situation for juding.
I dont mind to judje Jiel or even Harald no matter of temamtes or emvolved members...Just to give a clear explanation.
Harald where in the rules book is written "wiggle room"? We have a different point of view in the situation and in real protest room there would be an argumnet between the members ot the protest committee ,,,It would be very interesting,,
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Re: Race 2

Postby gr71 » 04 Jun 2020 10:37

jiel wrote:I checked the incident in zooming and there is a contact bow-stern as showed up in the picture below. Still thinking its a clear rule 12 violation. I am however involved in the race as a Eupho mate ...

Jiel on my opinion 12 is out of the conversation as Harald is changing course, he is luffing. If there is 12 i am exonarated from rrs21 a.
15 does not apply here as all the time Harald is the boat with right of way, i never became boat with right of way.
19.2.c. does not apply because i am coming from clear astern and there was no overlap.
If there is contact then 16,1 to Harald comes in conversation.
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Re: Race 2

Postby euphoria » 04 Jun 2020 11:56

gr71 wrote:i was keeping clear all the time and it was your luff that created that contact...
Also you need to consider that you shall give me room to keep clear under 16.1 which you don't because room is space to comply with my rule 12 obligations which I don't if there is contact

1. A slow luff from a boat clear ahead is not a violation of rule 16.1.
2. A boat changing course shall give the other boat room to keep clear. But if the other boat would not have been able to keep clear even without the course change, then how can she be given room? Impossible.

where in the rules book is written "wiggle room"?

"Wiggle room" is not written in the rules book, which is why it's put in quotes. It's an expression used by umpires.
It's the minimum course changes a right of way boat can make in normal situations. Typically the room in the immediate contact zone, as referred to in the definition of keep clear for boats overlapped on same tack.
Without "wiggle room" a keep clear boat can hold a right of way boat "in jail", preventing her from changing course because it would cause contact. This does not make sense of course.

What is logic is that the right of way boat can move her stern and bow within the immediate contact zone.
This zone is where a boat coming from clear astern shall not put her nose, as if it creates overlap, it would cause contact.

If I luffed less, there would not have been contact, but you would have overlapped a few centimeters to leeward of me, and you would immediately have broken rule 19.2c because you would have overlapped in the immediate contact zone and a luff would have made contact. Again, order of events here are not important. The fact that I'm luffing before you overlap gives you a better chance of keeping clear (by luffing).

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Re: Race 2

Postby samuel » 04 Jun 2020 14:35

NIce to read theses explanation guys, but i think that is not a valide protest once there was no hail at chat and the pen was cancel. I trust 100% when Euphoria hail a protest in chat and normaly I ask for my team mate to spin at the first oportunity, but he does not hail protest when the incident happened or just at first moment. Your hail it was final race, maybe too late.

look at SI : https://vsk-team.com/appendix-d.php - D2.1 (2)
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Re: Race 2

Postby gr71 » 04 Jun 2020 14:44

HI Sam, he did hail protest exaclty after i canceled the pen and i did not spin because i had different opinion...
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Re: Race 2

Postby samuel » 04 Jun 2020 14:57

samuel wrote:NIce to read theses explanation guys, but i think that is not a valide protest once there was no hail at chat and the pen was cancel. I trust 100% when Euphoria hail a protest in chat and normaly I ask for my team mate to spin at the first oportunity, but he does not hail protest when the incident happened or just at first moment. Your hail it was final race, maybe too late.

look at SI : https://vsk-team.com/appendix-d.php - D2.1 (2)


what a shame sam! =]

I was focused at race that missed to ask if euphoria hailed p. I apologize euphoria and my team for the mistake, and to trust my imagination....

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about incidente to me RRS 12 was break. but we must think for the future some way to add at S.i to avoid the tricky of slowing down the boat on purpose hitting the island :D :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Re: Race 2

Postby jiel » 05 Jun 2020 17:21

Pap still disagrees with the P 12 but said me that he accepted the decision given here by Harald, Jiel and Sam. That led to a RED win in this race 2.

That said, we can reject a protest just because the hail would not have been chatted (not the case here) but imo it is a rule 2 violation. If you know to have broken a rule you might do a 360, so if you know you could have broken a rule, it is natural to study the incident in a protest. Maybe I am wrong ...?
Cheers,
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