JieL_Eupho incident

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JieL_Eupho incident

Postby jiel » 16 May 2020 22:27

Hi all,
It happened at t=6'35'' of the replay. IMO Harald under rule 10 broke it. He argues to sail in his markroom but it is not. Just see what are the courses of the 2 other boats leading at this time, they are on spi and with a very different course. Also Eupho have had to put his spi up. In short, Eupho sailed to close the door disregarding what the course he might have in this position. His course was not to sail to the mark. Matkroom was given by Jiel.
Markroom definition :
Mark-Room Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side. Also, (a) room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it, and (b) room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course. ... .
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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby euphoria » 16 May 2020 22:54

Both tacks are proper course. I sailed TWA 155 which is proper course before I hoist spi.

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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby jiel » 17 May 2020 10:43

Watching the manoeuvres and courses, I was near to admit I was wrong but ... For your last tack, your boat was close_hauled at t=6'32'' and you launched the spi 17 sec later at 6'49''. So during a main part of these 17 sec, being under sail 2, your course was not proper course. The contact happened at t=6'43" or 44" almost 12 sec after your tack was over ready to hoist the spi. To follow your PC, and being under rule 10, you would have hoisted your spi in very few seconds, lets say 2 to 5 sec, after the last tack.
What do you think about ?

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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby Shura » 17 May 2020 15:46


sorry, but I don’t understand this situation.
why is Jean Luc wrong ?
What rules apply? as on the top mark or on the leeward mark ?
Harald give a more detailed analysis please.
Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby jiel » 17 May 2020 19:31

I got a 18 penalty. That is debatable. Harald is on PC if putting his spi up and I must give him mark-room. With the same course spi down, I think Harald is not on PC.
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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby euphoria » 18 May 2020 18:37

Interesting discussion. I remembered seeing something about it before, and I searched in the TR call book. Didn't find anything there, but I found it in the case book.

Case 134 wrote:A boat's proper course at any moment depends on the existing conditions. Some of those conditions are the wind strength and direction, the pattern of gusts and lulls in the wind, the waves, the current and the physical characteristics of her hull and equipment. The sails that she has set are part of her equipment and, therefore, one of the conditions on which her proper course depends. While L was sailing with her headsail, her proper course was the course that gave her the best VMG with her headsail, and not her spinnaker, set. L did not sail anove her proper course.

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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby jiel » 18 May 2020 23:35

I full agree with quotation which is in agreement with the PC definition. What I understand In short : everybody may sail with any sail he wants but to be on his PC he must have the course with the best VMG. In our affair, sailing with the headsail, I think that the best VMG is obtained with the boat axis at about 90° to the wind and on starboard tack to be able to pass the mark.

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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby euphoria » 19 May 2020 09:28

Proper course is not the course that makes you pass the mark as soon possible, but the course to sail around the course as quickly as possible.
When the 1st top mark is passed, we can forget about that one. Then the 2nd top mark is the only relevant mark for a while...
The proper course is to sail to the 2nd mark until the stardboard layline is passed.
After that time, the proper course is to sail on either starboard or port tack, with the TWA that gives the optimum VMG downwind.

I had passed the starboard layline when I gybed to port, and by sailing around TWA 155, I was sailing a proper course.
This heading is taking me close to the 2nd top mark, which means I'm entitled to room to sail to the mark, according to the definition of mark-room.

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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby jiel » 19 May 2020 18:32

Bonjour Harald et tous,
Well, I still am sceptic with 2 points.
Firstly because the mark-room definition precises : "room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it". So, the definition does not say that the PC is always to sail to the mark. It is evident if the boat has passed the mark because in such a case, the boat has left the mark and there is no more mark-room at all. So, when the definition says "when her proper course is to sail close to it", it applies when the boat has not passed the mark. Again, in our incident your PC, if sailing with the headsail, is not to sail to the mark.
Secondly, I feel a sort of dissymmetry when umpiring rule 18. On one hand (18.2(a)) when a inside boat is under rule 11, I found the forum discussions were very severe with the inside boat. On the other hand, when it is the rule 18.2(b) which is involved (and used to trap), then the umpiring discussions look very benevolent with the trapper. What do you think ?

TY a lot for the interressing discussion,
JL
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Re: JieL_Eupho incident

Postby euphoria » 24 May 2020 13:50

jiel wrote:the mark-room definition precises : "room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it". So, the definition does not say that the PC is always to sail to the mark.

No the proper course is not always to the mark. But we have agreed that I was on a proper course (case 134), sailing optimum VMG on port tack with genua. And this heading is taking me close to the mark, which makes me qualify for room to sail too the mark. If I had passed the port layline to that mark, it would have been a different story, and I would of course not had right to room anymore.

It is evident if the boat has passed the mark because in such a case, the boat has left the mark and there is no more mark-room at all.

When a boat has left the mark clear astern, 18 is usually turned off. But 18 is reapplied under the same conditions if the boat later again has to deal with the mark (there are calls telling this).

I feel a sort of dissymmetry when umpiring rule 18. On one hand (18.2(a)) when a inside boat is under rule 11, I found the forum discussions were very severe with the inside boat. On the other hand, when it is the rule 18.2(b) which is involved (and used to trap), then the umpiring discussions look very benevolent with the trapper. What do you think?

Maybe it's dissymmetry, but it's the way the rules are written, and we can use them as the toolbox they are. But I don't really think it's that dissymmetric, as under 11/18, the boat will only be penalized if sailing too far from the mark. If sailing tight, never pen under 11. Then with 18.2b, the same boat under 11 can trap a leeward boat by sailing close to the mark. So it's kind of logic anyway. That said, the rules are not made with TR in mind, so we can't expect them to be consistent for team racing situations.

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