Pap versus Jiel in prestart

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Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby jiel » 17 Jun 2020 21:24

Hi all,
In the replay here attached there is an incident and a protest at t=0'47.
My point :
Under t=0'43, Pap was under R11
At t=0'43, Pap tacked and Jiel must now keep clear being under R10 but pap didnt give room to Jiel to do so. There was no contact however nadeo gave a 10 to Jiel who asked cancellation. Pap accepted and protested Jiel.
IMO no pen (no contact) but if there was a contact then Pap would be penalyzed under R15.
What do you think ?
Cheers,
JL
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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby euphoria » 18 Jun 2020 14:44

Here is a video of the situation:



Pap (green boat) gybes 7-8 seconds into the video.
At that time he is pointing below (in front of the bow) of jiel (yellow boat), which means the best way to keep clear is to luff.
Pap luffs a little, but always pointing below, so the best way out does not change.
By keeping clear to the right, Pap has to luff alot to give room.
If keeping clear to the left, Pap does not have to change course at all.
The best way out is usually the option that to the smallest extent affects the right of way boat.
So to me this is a violation of rule 10, without exoneration under rule 21.

The video includes the following situation, where I in the red boat shall keep clear under 12, and shall give room under 15 if becoming overlapped.
VSK gave jiel a penalty under 15, even though there was no visible contact.
But since it's a contact penalty, it's considered contact, at least in an official race, in which case it's a penalty for me.

Jean-Luc, you know there is a kind of bug with your skin, which means some of us see a completely black hull. This makes it very hard to see your bow and stern from top view over the dark water. Could you make only a small change on your hull file in order to make the skin have a new checksum, which hopefully will fix the problem? I've tried to delete your skin file in the cache, but no luck. On my other computer, there is no problem. Could also be related to your loc file, as the destination of the loc file does not exist.

Harald
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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby jiel » 18 Jun 2020 17:20

Harald , TY for the analysis and video which helped me to have a better point of view.

Pap was "head to Wind" at t=8s (video) and on a "Close Hauled" course at t=10s.
Anyway, rule 13 says that "After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11 and 12 do not apply.".
If you stop the video at the instant when Pap took the CH course, it is clear in my opinion that I could not luff without almost immediate contact. My best way to KC was to go straight ahead so pap could avoid as required by rule 15. I had not to anticipate the Pap move while all the time I was row or entilted to room under 13. So imo, it is still NO PENALTY but if contact it would be a 15 penalty "When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the other boat’s actions" for Pap.

In short, yes it would be better to luff to KC IF Pap was row at t=8, but Pap was not row and it was up to Pap to KC until he was on a close-hauled course.

CU soon,
JL
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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby jiel » 18 Jun 2020 17:37

About the skin, I checked the loc file which is wrong. So I deleted it. Hope it will be ok now.
JL
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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby euphoria » 18 Jun 2020 17:54

Only in match race there is rule 13 when gybing.
In fleet race, you get instant right of way when you gybe (pass dead downwind), which means Pap has right of way 8s into the video.

Passing head to wind means only changing tacks against the wind, not with the wind.
Close-hauled means only the tightest angle you would sail at against the wind, not the deepest angle with the wind (which is 180).

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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby jiel » 19 Jun 2020 09:31

Oh yes, Pap was gybing.
I admit to have broken rule 10 and I apologize for that. In the stress of these rapid moves in the prestart, I was sure Pap will luff to go to start when I had room to keep clear in luffing.
Merci Harald,
Good day all,
JL
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Re: Pap versus Jiel in prestart

Postby euphoria » 19 Jun 2020 13:17

Thanks Jean-Luc, it's tricky as the decision has to be taken in less than one second...
Since I also got a pen, you won the race :-)

Cheers,
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