JieL - Shur incident

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JieL - Shur incident

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 27 Oct 2020 12:20

Hi all,
At about t = 5 ' 40 " in the attached replay, there was a contact and Shur got a 10 penalty. I think the pen was correct because Shur was leaving the zone and 18 has ceased to apply. What is your opinion ?

rule 18...
(d) Rules 18.2(b) and (c) cease to apply when the boat entitled to mark-room has been given that mark-room, or if she passes head to wind or leaves the zone.


Jean-Luc
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Shura » 27 Oct 2020 14:00



time 0:40

I think I was ROW.
Shuraz was the first to enter the zone and was associated with the sign and followed the proper course.

i possible lost the skill, but I think you will quickly fix me :oops:
Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby euphoria » 27 Oct 2020 15:33

These are always tricky. At least we know that Shuraz was sailing his proper course, so if 18.2(b)/(c) still applied, then Shuraz was ok. Ie if mark-room was not yet given:
- Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side - CHECK
- Room to sail to the mark when her proper course is to sail close to it - CHECK
- Room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course - CHECK

The last one is the interesting one. In my opinion, if a boat has more than 1 boat width space to the mark she is rounding AND has passed the port downwind layline to that mark (outside the V), then she can't claim anything under the last part of the definition of mark-room.

So in this case, no 18.2(b)/(c) for Shuraz anymore, since mark-room was already given, but actually 18.2(a) gives right to room to jiel (this is a glitch which has been corrected in the next edition of the rules).
Since jiel has right to room, he will be exonerated for breaking 16, which means Shuraz shall have a penalty in this situation for breaking rule 10 and 18.2(a).

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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Shura » 27 Oct 2020 16:20

i agree
Leo Tolstoy in my years did not write this.
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 27 Oct 2020 19:10

TY both for your feed back.

One more question if you please :

From which position can one state that a boat "leaves" the zone and so has had the room-mark ?
I heard it is when the boat crosses the perpendicular to the next-mark-direction and passing trough the current mark.
But could it rather be when the boat crosses the circle ?

CU soon,
Jean-Luc
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Shura » 28 Oct 2020 11:02

I will try to answer with a picture
maybe Harald will fix me :)
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby euphoria » 28 Oct 2020 12:12

It is not an absolute definition, Jean-Luc. What you mention may be what leg a boat is on, as indicated by Aleks picture with the vertical line.
The only thing you can do is to look at the 3 questions in my previous reply. Those are the tests.
If you are close to the mark, then it usually 18 is on until the mark is clear astern of you.

In the example from Aleks, mark-room has been given in position 3.

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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 29 Oct 2020 17:25

Hi guys,

OK I well understand the "check" method and agree with.

I just want to go futher about the 18 and wonder when and in which cases the " .. or leaves the zone" could apply. What was the author(s) thinking about ? For information, in the "Call Book for Team Racing 2017 2020", one can find the occurrence of the word "mark-room" 114 times when "18.2(b)" appears 30 times and '18.2(d)" only 2 times and uniquely about the ".. passes head to wind" part.

I guess the "...leaves the zone" could apply in the situation pictured here belower. If the contact occured when :
* the yellow boat was still entierely inside the circle then 18.2(b) applies
* the yellow-bow had crossed the circle then 18.2(b) has ceased to apply from 18.2(d)

That makes sense imo.
Cheers,
Jean-Luc
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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby euphoria » 30 Oct 2020 01:29

The "leaves the zone" part happens quite often in TR.
It's if you open the mark trap too wide (or is pushed out), i.e. you leave the zone before you re-enter and shut the door.
Like what Mago_uru does in this video at 40 seconds.



He was clear ahead when he entered the zone, so he was entitled to mark-room from Larsvegas under 18.2(b).
But because he left the zone, he lost that right, and when Larsvegas later becomes overlapped inside him, Larsvegas then has right to room under 18.2(a).

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Re: JieL - Shur incident

Postby Jean-Luc Dellis » 31 Oct 2020 12:05

Yes thanks, its clear and simple.
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